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Thoughts on test prop as kick start

stretch512 said:
To the OP if you have all of this and plan on running it I think Rick Rock and GymJunkie gave you two really good pieces of information. I hear what people are saying about kickstarting with prop but remember Rick said possibility to cause more aromatization hence you need your AI dosed correct or else it can cause sides (you want to feel your best don't you). As for Gymjunkie's comment on running GW throughout the entire cycle and PCT is correct and you will only cut much more effective especially after kickstarting with winny and not prop.

Now please consider this:
The purpose in my mind for switching esters is to increase the plasma levels and this is how it should work. I don't think kickstarting with prop is as productive as switching to prop the last few weeks of the cycle. Why is this you may ask? Well this gives a chance for the longer ester to diminish and the shorter ester to take over which prop is renowned for causing an increase plasma levels quickly compared to Enth or cyp which takes time to build. This why you can give a bit of punch going through those weeks 10-12 where myostatin might be trying rear its head.

This is just my opinion, I'm not a scientist but at this point I think I can say finishing with prop might be the better way to go. Re-think the cycle and possibly simplify the cycle and break it up into two separate cycles even. I find that throwing the kitchen sink at a goal sometimes isn't always the best course of action. The saying less is more is true and this is true in being able to listen to your body better in order to understand where you need to work on or grow more. Again just my thoughts

Cheers!
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Great advice right here, and excellent point about the myostatin. That's something a lot of people don't consider when planning cycles

(PM me for a price list for Biotech Labs and 10% discount)
 
What if I want to use prop long term ? It doesn't cause water weight and seems to make clean gains. I'd like to take it daily. Would this be a bad idea?

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the rock123 said:
What if I want to use prop long term ? It doesn't cause water weight and seems to make clean gains. I'd like to take it daily. Would this be a bad idea?

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I will preface my thoughts with the fact that I just do care for short chains.They can be tedious and require a lot of attention in order to keep your levels stable. There is nothing close to even keel of long chains.

I do not know where this comes from about prop not causing water weight and bloat and long chains give you water weight and bloat. How can that be? These are just carriers and all tests deliver the same exact test molecule. So what causes the bloat and water from cyp? And why does prop not cause bloat and water? I am lost as to why this s believed.
What you want is a nice even equilibrium between test leaving and test arriving. The half life is different so what is on the cyp molecule that is causing these problems?

I am not saying that short chains can't be managed, or inferior because I know that a lot of guys swear by them. I am just not a fan. Give me something I can do once or twice per week and be done with it. Like I said b4..I do not need one more thing in my life that I have to do everyday.
 
Jake said:
I will preface my thoughts with the fact that I just do care for short chains.They can be tedious and require a lot of attention in order to keep your levels stable. There is nothing close to even keel of long chains.

I do not know where this comes from about prop not causing water weight and bloat and long chains give you water weight and bloat. How can that be? These are just carriers and all tests deliver the same exact test molecule. So what causes the bloat and water from cyp? And why does prop not cause bloat and water? I am lost as to why this s believed.
What you want is a nice even equilibrium between test leaving and test arriving. The half life is different so what is on the cyp molecule that is causing these problems?

I am not saying that short chains can't be managed, or inferior because I know that a lot of guys swear by them. I am just not a fan. Give me something I can do once or twice per week and be done with it. Like I said b4..I do not need one more thing in my life that I have to do everyday.
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the belief is that due to the longer ester chain that it causes more water, which is complete bull shit as far as im concerned... there's a reason i've stuck with cyp all this time... i started with prop and i like cyp a million times better... its much easier to main stable levels like you pointed out and its never caused me any sort of water... any ester of test can cause water retention if your not managing estrogen and your diet is not dialed in... testosterone converts to estrogen no matter what ester it is... the difference is on a shorter ester you are getting more actual test than a longer ester... that equates to more estrogen conversion with more test though... so in theory, would not prop cause more water due to more estrogen being converted... ?? something to think about...
 
DylanGemelli said:
the belief is that due to the longer ester chain that it causes more water, which is complete bull shit as far as im concerned... there's a reason i've stuck with cyp all this time... i started with prop and i like cyp a million times better... its much easier to main stable levels like you pointed out and its never caused me any sort of water... any ester of test can cause water retention if your not managing estrogen and your diet is not dialed in... testosterone converts to estrogen no matter what ester it is... the difference is on a shorter ester you are getting more actual test than a longer ester... that equates to more estrogen conversion with more test though... so in theory, would not prop cause more water due to more estrogen being converted... ?? something to think about...
Click to expand...

Good point bro. My guess is too many calories from not so good carbs is what gives you bloat. The only thing better than long chains is longer chains.. I am a long chain fan, but I could never understand the short chain reasonings. I think that you took my thoughts and re arranged them for me. So we aren't crazy after all...lol
 
Jake said:
I will preface my thoughts with the fact that I just do care for short chains.They can be tedious and require a lot of attention in order to keep your levels stable. There is nothing close to even keel of long chains.

I do not know where this comes from about prop not causing water weight and bloat and long chains give you water weight and bloat. How can that be? These are just carriers and all tests deliver the same exact test molecule. So what causes the bloat and water from cyp? And why does prop not cause bloat and water? I am lost as to why this s believed.
What you want is a nice even equilibrium between test leaving and test arriving. The half life is different so what is on the cyp molecule that is causing these problems?

I am not saying that short chains can't be managed, or inferior because I know that a lot of guys swear by them. I am just not a fan. Give me something I can do once or twice per week and be done with it. Like I said b4..I do not need one more thing in my life that I have to do everyday.
Click to expand...

Agreed completely Jake. I've used both long and short esters many times, and I have found no difference whatsoever in water retention. I actually feel better and more stable with cypionate than anything. I'm with you on pinning once or twice a week. That EOD or every day pinning gets old fast


(PM me for a price list for Biotech Labs and 10% discount)
 
Jake said:
I will preface my thoughts with the fact that I just do care for short chains.They can be tedious and require a lot of attention in order to keep your levels stable. There is nothing close to even keel of long chains.

I do not know where this comes from about prop not causing water weight and bloat and long chains give you water weight and bloat. How can that be? These are just carriers and all tests deliver the same exact test molecule. So what causes the bloat and water from cyp? And why does prop not cause bloat and water? I am lost as to why this s believed.
What you want is a nice even equilibrium between test leaving and test arriving. The half life is different so what is on the cyp molecule that is causing these problems?

I am not saying that short chains can't be managed, or inferior because I know that a lot of guys swear by them. I am just not a fan. Give me something I can do once or twice per week and be done with it. Like I said b4..I do not need one more thing in my life that I have to do everyday.
Click to expand...
I think that the water retention being less comes from the lower doses with prop. They are more frequent which keeps the levels more consistent. Spikes from long esters with bigger single shot doses are more prevalent. When a larger dose hits the system your e levels go up. I find that lower more balanced doses daily of prop help me to keep my water down whereas the same weekly dose of cyp with twice week shots my water retention goes up.

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the rock123 said:
Sorry guys in a function but need some help with this . So prop is bad Cyp is good

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Click to expand...
No. Cyp is good for someone who doesn't want to inject frequently but for me, I know I'm different, prop is far more controllable and dosing can be altered with almost immediate results.
the rock123 said:
OK I need to rethink this ?

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Why rethink it?

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Well, as I understand we are saying prop produces more estrogen than cyp. This doesn't make sense to me . I'm running prop daily now and am having issues with being shutdown .Does Nolvadex added to the cycle help this. Im Already taking aromasin 25 mg eod. I was told by someone to bump up to 25 mg Ed aromasin and add 40 mg Nolvadex ed . Is this to much?

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the rock123 said:
Well, as I understand we are saying prop produces more estrogen than cyp. This doesn't make sense to me . I'm running prop daily now and am having issues with being shutdown .Does Nolvadex added to the cycle help this. Im Already taking aromasin 25 mg eod. I was told by someone to bump up to 25 mg Ed aromasin and add 40 mg Nolvadex ed . Is this to much?

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We do not know that prop produces more estrogen.It was a theoretical question. I alsoi do not think cyp makes you hold more water than prop. It has just been a discussion....and a good one.Many good points were made. Now it is time for you to find out on your own.Start with you fav and work from there.You will not know your personal answer for sometime...it is called experience. Everything has been said here, so pick your weapon....your right to bear arms bro.
 
the rock123 said:
Well, as I understand we are saying prop produces more estrogen than cyp. This doesn't make sense to me . I'm running prop daily now and am having issues with being shutdown .Does Nolvadex added to the cycle help this. Im Already taking aromasin 25 mg eod. I was told by someone to bump up to 25 mg Ed aromasin and add 40 mg Nolvadex ed . Is this to much?

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Click to expand...
Being shut down? Meaning your boys?

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