Nutrition Bulking/Maintenance

[Joe S.]

I think I'm going to answer my own question here but was pondering this while driving to work this morning...

I see a lot of diet post on bulking about upping the calories to lets just say 500-1,000 over maintenance to gain size and muscle. This makes sense as if you only ate at your maintenance while trying to bulk you would basically be just maintaining you're current size.

Now here is the part that I find interesting.. I see it posted that after bulking and upping calories for it, they will drop back down to maintenance.. lets say 2,500 was maintenance.

Shouldn't that change though?

If your maintaining 200 lbs at 2500 calories a day normally, then upped your calories to 3500 for 3 months to bulk and added lets just say 15 lbs of body weight to 215 lbs.. Wouldn't your maintenance calories need to be quite a bit higher going forward to maintain that 215?

If you dropped back down to 2500 maintenance wouldn't that decrease your size over a period of time as it took the extra calories to put that weight on in the first place?

 

[BigBusiness]

Yes.... you always have your maintenance cals set at the weight you want to hold

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[Sweetjones]

This is a good question, maybe Dylan can make a video and get more in depth on this for us all.


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[mickc1965]

I think I'm going to answer my own question here but was pondering this while driving to work this morning...

I see a lot of diet post on bulking about upping the calories to lets just say 500-1,000 over maintenance to gain size and muscle. This makes sense as if you only ate at your maintenance while trying to bulk you would basically be just maintaining you're current size.

Now here is the part that I find interesting.. I see it posted that after bulking and upping calories for it, they will drop back down to maintenance.. lets say 2,500 was maintenance.

Shouldn't that change though?

If your maintaining 200 lbs at 2500 calories a day normally, then upped your calories to 3500 for 3 months to bulk and added lets just say 15 lbs of body weight to 215 lbs.. Wouldn't your maintenance calories need to be quite a bit higher going forward to maintain that 215?

If you dropped back down to 2500 maintenance wouldn't that decrease your size over a period of time as it took the extra calories to put that weight on in the first place?

Based on the scenario you mention you would be increasing maintenance calories by ~200kcals, would be financially nice to be 200lbs and maintaining at 2500kcals [emoji3]

 

[Joe S.]

Based on the scenario you mention you would be increasing maintenance calories by ~200kcals, would be financially nice to be 200lbs and maintaining at 2500kcals [emoji3]

So basically I assume there is a math equation to get an idea then? Something in the range of 3 months at 3500 + 15 lbs. So to maintain 215 = so many calories per day... basing off what you said at 200 it would now = 2700?

 

[ironlifter36]

Yes, your maintenance would change.

My maintenance for 170lbs is about 2700cal where as my maintenance for 180lbs is 3000cal.

Going right into a 1000cal surplus is a bit much IMO, 500 calorie surplus is more than adequate and will put you at about 1lb gain per week. 500 calorie surplus is enough energy to ensure muscle growth without a bunch of unwanted fat gain. Like most things, there is a law of diminishing returns. However, as your weight climbs your "maintenance climbs", so you will need to increase your calories to stay in that "500 calorie" surplus range.

 

[ironlifter36]

If you have the time, this video further expounds on the calorie surplus...https://youtu.be/xGoDrFQKsvI?list=PLyrukll4XwFGAikZMliTb4W--eJybsjmd

To small of a surplus and you stay lean with little muscle gain. To big of a surplus and you gain muscle and a lot of unwanted fat. There is a sweet spot and it also depends on what your personal goals are. Some people are willing to give up some muscle in order to stay lean while others are after size and are willing to gain some fat.

 

[Carmel cowboy]

Very good question joe. Here is what i have learned from my experience. Its more complicated then calorie in vs calorie out for whatever your goal is. You could get into a lot of detail with this topic and make it more complicated then it has to be so I will try to keep my post simple. I use how my body is responding to the macros I am eating moreso then the total calories and here is why, for every gram of protein and carbs there is approx 4 calories and for every gram of fat 9 calories. So if I was going to bulk and I ate 1 gram of protein per pound of ideal body weight but when I am in maintainence or cutting I eat 1.5 grams per pound. If I raise my carbs the same amount that i take away from protein when transitioning from a cut to a bulk my calories don't change but my body will respond differently. If add .5 grams of carbs per pound of body weight to my diet and drop .5 grams of protein per pound of body weight I would get a different response while eating the same amount of calories! Knowing the amount calories is important but in my humble opinion and experience what makes up those calories is top priority!! The best way to find your maintenance is to eat at a certain caloric intake for 2-3 weeks and see if gain or lose weight.

 

[olderbro]

Yes, if you get bigger you need more calories for maintenance. I'd say 15 calories per pound of additional bodyweight as a starting point.

 

[ironlifter36]

Very good question joe. Here is what i have learned from my experience. Its more complicated then calorie in vs calorie out for whatever your goal is. You could get into a lot of detail with this topic and make it more complicated then it has to be so I will try to keep my post simple. I use how my body is responding to the macros I am eating moreso then the total calories and here is why, for every gram of protein and carbs there is approx 4 calories and for every gram of fat 9 calories. So if I was going to bulk and I ate 1 gram of protein per pound of ideal body weight but when I am in maintainence or cutting I eat 1.5 grams per pound. If I raise my carbs the same amount that i take away from protein when transitioning from a cut to a bulk my calories don't change but my body will respond differently. If add .5 grams of carbs per pound of body weight to my diet and drop .5 grams of protein per pound of body weight I would get a different response while eating the same amount of calories! Knowing the amount calories is important but in my humble opinion and experience what makes up those calories is top priority!! The best way to find your maintenance is to eat at a certain caloric intake for 2-3 weeks and see if gain or lose weight.

Very good point CC

 

[RickRock]

Yes, this should go without saying. As your bodyweight increases, so does your maintenance calories. However there really won't be a big difference on maintenance unless you gain like 20 lbs or something. Gaining 5-10 lbs won't change your intake that much at all, and of course on cycle there is the factor of temporary water weight and glycogen that has nothing to do with actual muscle tissue. You might increase your daily intake a total of 50-75 calories on average which isn't much to be worth overthinking

 

[Joe S.]

Thanks Gents, Very informative responses, I'll check out that vid IL and CC very interesting and makes total sense.

I just wonder how many people that we see here and elsewhere that lose all there gains after a bulk, is because they go back to the original maintenance calories and don't keep up with the necessary amount to accommodate the extra pounds put on in the bulking process.

 

[RickRock]

Very good question joe. Here is what i have learned from my experience. Its more complicated then calorie in vs calorie out for whatever your goal is. You could get into a lot of detail with this topic and make it more complicated then it has to be so I will try to keep my post simple. I use how my body is responding to the macros I am eating moreso then the total calories and here is why, for every gram of protein and carbs there is approx 4 calories and for every gram of fat 9 calories. So if I was going to bulk and I ate 1 gram of protein per pound of ideal body weight but when I am in maintainence or cutting I eat 1.5 grams per pound. If I raise my carbs the same amount that i take away from protein when transitioning from a cut to a bulk my calories don't change but my body will respond differently. If add .5 grams of carbs per pound of body weight to my diet and drop .5 grams of protein per pound of body weight I would get a different response while eating the same amount of calories! Knowing the amount calories is important but in my humble opinion and experience what makes up those calories is top priority!! The best way to find your maintenance is to eat at a certain caloric intake for 2-3 weeks and see if gain or lose weight.

This is absolute.y spot on advice right here. Nobody can just go by cookie cutter numbers in everything. You have to know how you respond as an individual, and experiment with different intakes and macro ratios to know how your body takes those things to figure out your own ideal plan.

 

[ironlifter36]

This is just my opinion, so take it as just that. I think people "lose" a large majority of their gains because they over estimated how much "muscle" they actually gained in the first place. A significant portion of weight gained is extra water and glycogen as Rick mentioned. Obviously, this "excess" weight gain depends heavily on the compounds and many other factors such as diet and estrogen control. But, for the average person to gain 20lbs of "actual" muscle on a 12 week cycle would be the exception and certainly not the rule. Still, if you gain 20lbs then lose 10lbs of water over the following 2 months and end up netting 8-10lbs of lean mass, that is still pretty damn good IMO. Especially since an intermediate to advanced lifter would be doing great to add 5lbs in a year..if that.

I am not interested in how much I can gain, I am only interested in what I can keep.

 

[Joe S.]

Yes that's my goal, to keep what I gain, I don't want sloppy that's for sure.

 

[mickc1965]

So basically I assume there is a math equation to get an idea then? Something in the range of 3 months at 3500 + 15 lbs. So to maintain 215 = so many calories per day... basing off what you said at 200 it would now = 2700?

Assuming maintenance at 200lbs is 2500 kcals then this equates to body weight in lbs x12.5 so if you are now 215 and everything else remains unchanged (such as daily activity) then at 215 you should need 2687 kcals that will not exact but it would be around that figure, however I would be surprised if anyone would be maintaining body weight with a caloric intake of a 12.5 multiple, for instance I am ~170 and cut about a 1lb a week at body weight x14 which is ~2300 kcals and maintain at ~2800 sometimes more depends on activity.

 

[Carmel cowboy]

This is just my opinion, so take it as just that. I think people "lose" a large majority of their gains because they over estimated how much "muscle" they actually gained in the first place. A significant portion of weight gained is extra water and glycogen as Rick mentioned. Obviously, this "excess" weight gain depends heavily on the compounds and many other factors such as diet and estrogen control. But, for the average person to gain 20lbs of "actual" muscle on a 12 week cycle would be the exception and certainly not the rule. Still, if you gain 20lbs then lose 10lbs of water over the following 2 months and end up netting 8-10lbs of lean mass, that is still pretty damn good IMO. Especially since an intermediate to advanced lifter would be doing great to add 5lbs in a year..if that.

I am not interested in how much I can gain, I am only interested in what I can keep.

I agree brother!!!!