AI's do more harm than good?

[Blackhawk]

I've always felt better with higher estrodiol levels (>70)- and never had gyno issues.

This presentation is amazing and makes the case that science agrees.

http://www.totrevolution.com/the-ro...cumulation-sexual-function-w-dr-neal-rouzier/

Dr Rouzier also has other presentations along with Dr Keith Nichols.

Makes the case to take E rather than block it.

Thoughts?

 

[cbbram00]

Whatever makes you happy bro. I have loss of libido with numbers that high. 30-35 is my sweet spot.

 

[DylanGemelli]

tell that to people that get gynecomastia, high blood pressure, large amounts of water retention etc... everyone is different.. you do what you need to do for YOUR body... Letting estrogen get out of control or too high for many is dangerous to say the least... its all about proper use and knowing what your body needs...

 

[Blackhawk]

I was hoping for a response to the presentation and review of scientific data. I understand the prevailing thought and empirical evidence - which is strong and not to be disregarded - it carries weight and consideration. But the science points to no causal effect/link to gyno or libido and low estrogen - in fact - it points to the opposite. There is a definite link to both negative sides from other factors - which won't go into - but not to high estrogen. Science is always and ever advancing.
I honestly am uncertain - but the scientific evidence is compelling.

 

[DylanGemelli]

i dont care about the presentation to be honest with you... i deal with thousands and thousands of people each month... i have HANDS on experience with so many people spanning nearly a decade... so what I SEE with my own eyes says what it says and thats that high estrogen numbers in men can become DANGEROUS to overall health... the REAL LIFE evidence of what i see within people says far more to me than some "data" that was produced by science... Seeing every day people have serious conditions an issues is far more factual to me... sorry, you can see it how you want etc... thats up to you but when you deal with the amounts of people i do, see them suffer etc... then you see things for how they really are...

 

[Blackhawk]

And your experience and knowledge is incredibly valuable, insightful, and I would say 100% correct in that high estrogen is "associated" with negative sides - but it may not be "causing" them - or at least not the primary cause. Insulin resistance, fat, DNA, genetics and other factors may play a larger role.
That is, in every case where these negative sides occur - you will also have high estrogen - but it may not be the high estrogen causing them. So in seeing thousands of cases where people with negative sides also have high estrogen, it is true that the two are associated. I do a poor job of explaining - the Doctor, presentation and the science do a much better job. But they don't discount your findings - they build upon them.

 

[DylanGemelli]

And your experience and knowledge is incredibly valuable, insightful, and I would say 100% correct in that high estrogen is "associated" with negative sides - but it may not be "causing" them - or at least not the primary cause. Insulin resistance, fat, DNA, genetics and other factors may play a larger role.
That is, in every case where these negative sides occur - you will also have high estrogen - but it may not be the high estrogen causing them. So in seeing thousands of cases where people with negative sides also have high estrogen, it is true that the two are associated. I do a poor job of explaining - the Doctor, presentation and the science do a much better job. But they don't discount your findings - they build upon them.

ok... im extremely busy today and dont have the time to go into this when its something so evident... certain compounds that convert to estrogen, raise the levels... these side effects that are associated occur with the rise in estrogen... its not from dna, its not from genetics, etc.. now, people that are overweight, can have an increase in estrogen from being over weight, thats a fact but high estrogen levels are tied to a MULTITUDE of side effects... its not a big secret nor conspiracy... if you are talking about an every day person that is not using steroids, then that may be another story but certain steroids cause these issues and the rise in estrogen causing an abundance of side effects.. you can interpret it however you feel... i have an obligation to teach people about these issues and protect them from them

 

[RUCingdsgainz]

There no way that is possible I get gyno at even the slightest influx of estrogen levels ass well as acne soo I will be sticking with my AI. There are very few who can handle high levels of estrogen in my opinion.

 

[Christmas]

Good for you. My body has responded to estrogen levels like they were poison. My comfort zone is 15-25 when my testosterone is 1000-1400. I get really bad inflammation in my joints, migraines, and fatigue when my estrogen goes above that. I get low estrogen symptoms when my estrogen drops under 8.
When my test levels crashed, I was given hcg to boost them, and my estrogen skyrocketed to 45 while my T was only 600. I craved sweets like crazy and gained 70 lbs of fat in 3 months. Then I went on TRT and kept my estrogen in my comfort zone and lost those 70 lbs plus extra in a little over a year.
I agree with Dylan that high estrogen benefiting men sounds crazy. That would point to steroids doing the opposite of what they do, lol. Some of the worst side effects come with increased estrogen on cycle.

 

[RoboGainz]

High Estrogen? No thanks. No libido and looking like the michelin man isnt my thing. 21-25 is my sweet spot on TRT.

 

[Blackhawk]

I understand the prevalent thinking - and association of negative sides with estrogen (which is real, factual and proven) - but you're doing yourself a disservice of you don't stay current with the science and delve into causation - which is much different then association. You can see a high estrogen number on a blood test while you feel like shit or are having gyno and then blame the estrogen - but that doesn't mean the estrogen caused it. Likewise, the symptoms can clear when estrogen goes down -but that is all association and doesn't prove that lower estrogen caused resolution.

https://trtrevolution.libsyn.com

Estrogen is used to treat cancer and has been shown to reduce prostate cancer, improve libido, increase muscle, and reduce fat. It's a different ball game for those taking steroids - as Dylan rightly points out. But tests have been done while taking testosterone and supplementing with estrogen. Estrogen supplements in such cases have shown nothing but positive effects. Not me saying this but research and Doctors. Follow the link and call them crazy - but my experience is similar and consistent. I'm on TRT and am looking into estrogen supplementation. Undecided as yet - but compelling evidence to do so. If I had prostate cancer I would supplement with Estrogen immediately. Again, I am convinced and it has been proven that high estrogen is associated with negative sides - that is not the issue. There is no proof (not a single study - wow - out of hundreds with estrogen) that the estrogen caused the negative sides. I think that is worth exploring more as it stands to reason that at least one study would show that high estrogen caused negative sides.

 

[Blackhawk]

I should add my age - which is 57 - and not only am I on TRT, but also on SARMS - which I got from a source on here. I am responding big time to the SARMS and feel awesome. Honestly am big and fairly ripped and feel very healthy - perhaps more so than ever. A big hesitation is that I believe that high estrogen with steroids is a major error which will lead to negative sides - but I don't know or understand how high estrogen will interact with the SARMS. So far so good - but just don't know so am hesitant to take an estrogen supplement. The supplements are oral tabs and inexpensive.

For those who say no libido was CAUSED by high estrogen - the science says otherwise but I understand your position. I actually reviewed the study showing estrogen supplementation improved libido and sexual function in healthy males. But you throw in T, steroids and SARMS - then you can throw the study results away. But there is a similar study with men on TRT and estrogen supplementation.

 

[Christmas]

So, where are the research articles besides a podcast on one doctor? All I’m finding is, even with a google search, is stuff he says, and zero research papers except ones that say high estrogen increase chances of stroke and heart attack.

Testosterone inhibitors are used to treat prostate cancer because some prostate cancer cells respond to testosterone. It’s actually proving less than optimal to treat prostate cancer by inhibiting testosterone as the quality of life isn’t much improved due to the health problems brought on by inhibited testosterone. Balanced high amounts of testosterone have been found to be as effective for treating prostate cancer as inhibiting testosterone, but without the side effects low testosterone brings. Yay for lab tests vs depending on assumptions (also see cholesterol, dietary fat, etc).


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[DylanGemelli]

So, where are the research articles besides a podcast on one doctor? All I’m finding is, even with a google search, is stuff he says, and zero research papers except ones that say high estrogen increase chances of stroke and heart attack.

Testosterone inhibitors are used to treat prostate cancer because some prostate cancer cells respond to testosterone. It’s actually proving less than optimal to treat prostate cancer by inhibiting testosterone as the quality of life isn’t much improved due to the health problems brought on by inhibited testosterone. Balanced high amounts of testosterone have been found to be as effective for treating prostate cancer as inhibiting testosterone, but without the side effects low testosterone brings. Yay for lab tests vs depending on assumptions (also see cholesterol, dietary fat, etc).


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really great points brought up... excellent post

 

[RickRock]

There is not near enough information here to draw the conclusions they have. The way it reads, it says nothing about whether the conclusion is based on normal test levels or superphysiological levels. It also doesmt take into account estrogen sensitivity in subjects
I'm inclined to believe that conclusion is based on healthy normal test levels with normal estrogen sensitivity. In that case, suppressing estrogen would be bad. That much I would agree. It can cause a whole host of problems and support the claims that not suppressing estrogen would lead to higher libido, better health, more fat loss, etc. The one thing that also wasnt mentioned is test to estrogen ratio. This is also an important thing to consider. For example you may feel better with slightly higher estrogen numbers than normal when your test is very high (like when its 5 to 7 times normal range on cycle). That still doesn't change the fact that estrogen needs controlled even to achieve that. And that's really what this is about....controlling estrogen....and NOT suppressing it at all. Proper hormonal balance is ALWAYS key. The means to achieve that proper balance though....is not constant and not the same for every situation or every person.

In closing, the whole blanket statement needs thrown right out the window for generalizing without proper or valid info. You end up with people looking at that and taking it entirely wrong, as you did

 

[Blackhawk]

Many of the studies are shown here: http://www.totrevolution.com/the-ro...cumulation-sexual-function-w-dr-neal-rouzier/

Still others can be found with a google search. I have now read several - but am not an expert by any standard. I am searching for facts that can be verified so that I can optimize my health and avoid harm.

I appreciate the replies and find them valuable. The subject is my current obsession and I’m still weighing the evidence.

 

[Junior P]

Very informative. Everybody's chemical makeup is a lil different and we all respond slightly different.

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[DylanGemelli]

There is not near enough information here to draw the conclusions they have. The way it reads, it says nothing about whether the conclusion is based on normal test levels or superphysiological levels. It also doesmt take into account estrogen sensitivity in subjects
I'm inclined to believe that conclusion is based on healthy normal test levels with normal estrogen sensitivity. In that case, suppressing estrogen would be bad. That much I would agree. It can cause a whole host of problems and support the claims that not suppressing estrogen would lead to higher libido, better health, more fat loss, etc. The one thing that also wasnt mentioned is test to estrogen ratio. This is also an important thing to consider. For example you may feel better with slightly higher estrogen numbers than normal when your test is very high (like when its 5 to 7 times normal range on cycle). That still doesn't change the fact that estrogen needs controlled even to achieve that. And that's really what this is about....controlling estrogen....and NOT suppressing it at all. Proper hormonal balance is ALWAYS key. The means to achieve that proper balance though....is not constant and not the same for every situation or every person.

In closing, the whole blanket statement needs thrown right out the window for generalizing without proper or valid info. You end up with people looking at that and taking it entirely wrong, as you did

what an excellent post... thank you for posting this, with it being so descriptive and yet so easy to comprehend as well... very very very nice brother

 

[Blackhawk]

Here is a video with many of the studies front and center: https://youtu.be/HYW5yIxPA18

For discussion purposes as I am here to learn. For those who have asked - where are these studies? - here they are.

 

[Christmas]

He should put the studies in the description below so we don’t need to watch the entire 49 min video to find them. How about you post the references so we can read the research articles?


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