Second Cycle Test E + Tbol Advice

[TheRev404]

Hi Guys,

About me:
21
182cm (6ft)
78.7Kgs (173.5 Pounds)
18ish % bodyfat (High I know)
training for 7ish years now.
Train 5 days a week.

So I am looking to go into my second cycle and am looking to change things up a bit. My first cycle, well technically not my first when I was 15 I regrettably did a month of dbol and a month of 19nor having no idea about anything and ended up with pretty bad gyno which I still have to this day, any way I digress, my first proper cycle was two months ago. I ran 500mg Test E per week for 12 weeks and 30mg Dbol ED for 4 weeks. It went well and I went from 75Kg to 84Kg (19.8 pound gain) however I have lost a large amount of that as stated above now down to 78.7kgs, admittedly some of this was due to not maintaining my diet after the cycle. On a good note I maintain almost all strength gains.

So anyway I have one month left of my three months off and am starting to look into what to do next. My goal is to get as lean gains as physically possible to attempt to lower my bf%, the reason I want to do this rather than just cut is I feel at 78kgs if I were to cut I would lose to much muscle mass. I have seen a dietitian who put me on a 10 day detox (where I dropped 2 kgs) and is then going to put me on a very clean diet (I hope haven't seen it yet), and I will be super strict on myself on this diet.

From everything I have researched and from Dylan's video (which introduced me to the site, thanks) Tbol is much better for what I am looking to achieve then Dbol. I also considered Anavar.

So what I had in mind was:
Week 1-12 Test E 500mg EW
week 1-4 Tbol 60mg ED

With PCT from week 14-16 and Nolva in hand during the cycle if needed.

Questions:

1) Simply put, is this a good idea for my desired goals?
2) Is Test E the best along side Tbol or are one of the other Tests better?
3) Do I need to run Arimidex on this cycle?
4) Will I need HCG Post cycle?
Previously I did not go for arimidex and HCG simply because of budget constraints.

If I think up any more questions I will post them, thanks in advance for any and all help!

 

[jdcain19]

Honestly, at your height, weight and BF%, I do not think this is a good idea. If you were a lower body fat then i could see your weight being justifiable but it seems like you may need to work on your diet. What does your diet currently look like? How many calories a day are you eating? How many grams of protein, carbs and fats?

To answer your other questions:
2. Test E is great with Tbol
3. I would run Aromasin without a doubt. Especially with you having gyno.
4. No hCG in PCT. you could use it starting after your last pin up until PCT, but not in PCT.

Also, what is your exact PCT layout? Maybe we can help with that.

 

[TheRev404]

Thanks for the quick response. Look my fat % is high but when I look at myself I don't feel like it's a huge problem, I would love to be a single digit guy but that is not going to happen over night.

I will attach a picture of myself to give an exact idea of what I look like:
Bear in mind that was before I started the detox so I am a little leaner now.

As I said I am in the process of working in my diet and by the end of next month (when I plan on starting) I should have it all going well. I just think its better then doing Test E Dbol again and just losing most of the gains.

My PCT was simply 1 week Nolva 40mg Ed, 1 week Nolva 20mg ED.
The only side effect I had was backny, I didn't have any problems with gyno other then that which I already have which I gave up hope of getting rid of without surgery a while ago.

 

[jdcain19]

Thanks for the additional info. Please know that I am in no way trying to put you down or anything like that. I am trying to get more info to better help you. With that said, how did you get your bf%? My first cycle, I was at 18% BF but I could still my six pack (I'm hoping my scale is messed up and I'm really lower than I thought), but you look like you may be a slight bit higher than what you think. I can understand that if you've made up your mind, you're going to do it regardless. In that case, I like Test E and Tbol. However, I would extend your Tbol to six weeks instead of just four. Also, I would add Clomid to your PCT 50/50/25/25. It will better help restart your HPTA.

I would start the Aromasin at 25mg EOD and adjust from there. This is a little high since you're gyno prone. I would also run it through your PCT.

You should probably get some CEL Cycle Assist to run your whole cycle to protect all of your organs while on cycle.

 

[TheRev404]

O no man, no worries at all. Well it was pinch test which is notoriously inaccurate so you may be right, although my ab training is non existent so don't read to much into the lack there of , also as I said that was pre detox so I was about 4kgs heavier. I will try get a more up to date picture, but its like 12:30am here so I will do that tomorrow. Thanks for all the advice so far! Ill check in tomorrow.

 

[jdcain19]

Sure thing man! Let me know if you need anything else!

 

[RickRock]

Hey brother, first of all I'd like to welcome you to adrenaline Rush. You are in the right place to get the best advice and information out there, and we truly look out for the best interests of everyone, and treat everyone like family, which brings me to your goals and what you propose to do with your cycle....

You are honestly very young man, your body fat is too high for steroid use, and your height to weight ratio indicates you have a lot of natural growth ahead of you before you should jump on roids in my opinion. We can help you get things dialed in with the right diet and training regiment and get you on course to success. You can start by posting up your current diet and routine and we can help you critique that.

At this point, like I said, I don't think you should cycle at all. However if you want a good alternative, then look into sarms. They are excellent for those in your situation because you can use them at higher bodyfat levels without having to worry about horrible side effects of AAS. They are also minimally suppressive and perfect for body recomposition, which is really what you need to get that bodyfat down. Your diet and training needs to be on point first and foremost and I want to make that perfectly clear, but once we have you all setup in that department, here is a good sarms setup for you

1-12 MK-2866 25mg per day
1-12 S4 50mg per day
1–12 GW-501516 20mg per day

Get these sarms in the highest quality and purity available from www.pureessencesarms.com

 

[TheRev404]

Hi,
Thanks for the advice.

Look I don't want to be a dick and come on to your forums, ask for advice and then disagree but I have several problems with sarms:

1) First off they are to expensive for their benefit, I can't justify the expense for the gains I will receive.
2) From the research I have done a few problems have come up, firstly very very mixed reviews. Secondly not a lot of information, the first few google results are articles written by Dylan and then forums threads with yourself and Dylan defending them, again I really don't want to come across as rude or disregarding your advice, this is just my observations.
3)You suggest GW-501516 I am not sure if you are aware of this but:

A 2004 article in The Wall Street Journal noted that a study published in Nature Medicine had found that GW501516 increased polyps in specially-bred mice,[3][33] but GSK originally said that they had not identified any safety problems with the compound and would continue to develop it.[14] However, researchers from GSK later presented findings of the adverse effects of giving GW501516 to rats and mice for two years at the 2009 meeting of the Society of Toxicology. The compound was found to significantly increase the chances of developing cancer and development of the drug was subsequently halted.[34][35][36]
In 2013 New Scientist reported that "tests on rats showed that at all doses, the drug rapidly causes cancers in a multitude of organs, including the liver, bladder, stomach, skin, thyroid, tongue, testes, ovaries and womb."[4] In 2013, WADA took the rare step of warning potential users of the compound of the possible health risks. They stated "clinical approval has not, and will not be given for this substance".[2][24]

4) I am not going to buy off the internet as I can not count on anything getting through my customs (South Africa) so anything I buy I have to be able to source in person.

So in conclusion, am I for the idea of an alternative to AAS? Sure but unless I get to see more definitive proof of success, value for money and health and safety it's not going to be with sarms.

 

[RickRock]

Hi,
Thanks for the advice.

Look I don't want to be a dick and come on to your forums, ask for advice and then disagree but I have several problems with sarms:

1) First off they are to expensive for their benefit, I can't justify the expense for the gains I will receive.
2) From the research I have done a few problems have come up, firstly very very mixed reviews. Secondly not a lot of information, the first few google results are articles written by Dylan and then forums threads with yourself and Dylan defending them, again I really don't want to come across as rude or disregarding your advice, this is just my observations.
3)You suggest GW-501516 I am not sure if you are aware of this but:

A 2004 article in The Wall Street Journal noted that a study published in Nature Medicine had found that GW501516 increased polyps in specially-bred mice,[3][33] but GSK originally said that they had not identified any safety problems with the compound and would continue to develop it.[14] However, researchers from GSK later presented findings of the adverse effects of giving GW501516 to rats and mice for two years at the 2009 meeting of the Society of Toxicology. The compound was found to significantly increase the chances of developing cancer and development of the drug was subsequently halted.[34][35][36]
In 2013 New Scientist reported that "tests on rats showed that at all doses, the drug rapidly causes cancers in a multitude of organs, including the liver, bladder, stomach, skin, thyroid, tongue, testes, ovaries and womb."[4] In 2013, WADA took the rare step of warning potential users of the compound of the possible health risks. They stated "clinical approval has not, and will not be given for this substance".[2][24]

4) I am not going to buy off the internet as I can not count on anything getting through my customs (South Africa) so anything I buy I have to be able to source in person.

So in conclusion, am I for the idea of an alternative to AAS? Sure but unless I get to see more definitive proof of success, value for money and health and safety it's not going to be with sarms.

I understand your issues with sarms, and if you don't want to use them that's fine brother. I was just giving you a suggestion based on your current age, conditi, and bodyfat level because I simply cannot recommend AAS for you at this point. You are too young, need to get into better shape, and you need more muscle on your frame.

I'd also like to clear up the flawed study you posted. This has been gone over probably a million times, but I'm sure you haven't seen it or looked into it much. The rats were given doses of 5,10,15, and 20mg per kg of body weight which is an EXTREMELY high dose. That equals doses of 500mg-2000mg per day for a human. The rats were also given this High dose for 2 years straight (104 weeks). Anytime you take something 100x up to 500x the recommend dose it is not going to be good. Take a whole bottle of aspirin and you die within minutes. Hey get what I'm saying here? There was also another study showing that PPar agonists (GW) do not promote tumorogenesis in humans like they do in rats. So you can see how flawed the study is and there has never been a problem EVER for humans taking GW

My bet recommendation to you right now if you don't want to use sarms is to get into better shape, because at 18% bodyfat or more you are not ready for steroids at all. You are way too fat and it will be far too hard on your system with blood pressure, lipids, and other health markers. Get down to 12-15% minimum first, and we can go from there

 

[TheRev404]

I understand your issues with sarms, and if you don't want to use them that's fine brother. I was just giving you a suggestion based on your current age, conditi, and bodyfat level because I simply cannot recommend AAS for you at this point. You are too young, need to get into better shape, and you need more muscle on your frame.

I'd also like to clear up the flawed study you posted. This has been gone over probably a million times, but I'm sure you haven't seen it or looked into it much. The rats were given doses of 5,10,15, and 20mg per kg of body weight which is an EXTREMELY high dose. That equals doses of 500mg-2000mg per day for a human. The rats were also given this High dose for 2 years straight (104 weeks). Anytime you take something 100x up to 500x the recommend dose it is not going to be good. Take a whole bottle of aspirin and you die within minutes. Hey get what I'm saying here? There was also another study showing that PPar agonists (GW) do not promote tumorogenesis in humans like they do in rats. So you can see how flawed the study is and there has never been a problem EVER for humans taking GW

My bet recommendation to you right now if you don't want to use sarms is to get into better shape, because at 18% bodyfat or more you are not ready for steroids at all. You are way too fat and it will be far too hard on your system with blood pressure, lipids, and other health markers. Get down to 12-15% minimum first, and we can go from there

Thanks for the response. I see what you're saying definitely. I did actually read on further, reading several papers on that study as well as forum threads discussing it and they all argued semantics and maths but personally at the end of the day it doesn't matter, for me the fact that a study showed that and that the people who made it even said don't take it means I will never touch the stuff.

As for my situation I find myself in a bit of uncertainty. I understand completely that my fat% is to high, and my intention was to build as lean muscle as physically possible in order to put on the weight while keeping my fat the same, therefor decreasing fat%. As I said I could cut but I feel if I did I would lose to much muscle mass. I have heard a few people say there is no such thing as a hard gainer and that if you eat you gain bla bla, but I disagree completely. I have been training for years now and have always had a decent high calorie diet, sure it might have not been clean enough but that's not the point. The fact is there are different body type, and some struggle to gain muscle mass. I have always struggled to put on weight and if I were to attempt to cut I would pretty much lose 5+ years of effort.

So if you guys have advice other than serms and I guess other than AAS then I am all ears.

 

[TheRev404]

Ok, so in order to be more accurate I decided to weigh myself today as well as get a pinch test, unfortunately pinch test is all I have access to at the moment.
I also took a new photo.

Weight: 77.9Kgs
Fat%: 15.8% (whether or not I look it I couldn't tell you but that is what the pinch test said)
[attachment=0:ta6t6eis]0P8DKk7l.jpg[/attachment:ta6t6eis]

 

[RickRock]

You honestly aren't terribly far off on getting into proper shape, and a little more cutting will do the trick. As for you thinking you'll lose muscle mass cutting, that couldn't be farther from the truth if you do things correctly. It all comes down to the right diet and training just like everything.

I also want you to realize that you will get MUCH MORE out of a cycle, and I'm talking probably twice as much if not more, by being leaner and in better shape. The higher your bodyfat, the more your body will aromatize and turn test into estrogen instead if building muscle with it. What this does is just bloat you, get you even fatter, give you much less muscle, and increases your chances of gyno big time. I want you to realize just how important getting into shape is before cycling.

 

[TheRev404]

You honestly aren't terribly far off on getting into proper shape, and a little more cutting will do the trick. As for you thinking you'll lose muscle mass cutting, that couldn't be farther from the truth if you do things correctly. It all comes down to the right diet and training just like everything.

I also want you to realize that you will get MUCH MORE out of a cycle, and I'm talking probably twice as much if not more, by being leaner and in better shape. The higher your bodyfat, the more your body will aromatize and turn test into estrogen instead if building muscle with it. What this does is just bloat you, get you even fatter, give you much less muscle, and increases your chances of gyno big time. I want you to realize just how important getting into shape is before cycling.

Thanks man, let me just say I am appreciating the feedback. Putting aside the age problem for now, I am curious what you would consider the correct weight and fat% to be before starting a cycle?

 

[DylanGemelli]

You honestly aren't terribly far off on getting into proper shape, and a little more cutting will do the trick. As for you thinking you'll lose muscle mass cutting, that couldn't be farther from the truth if you do things correctly. It all comes down to the right diet and training just like everything.

I also want you to realize that you will get MUCH MORE out of a cycle, and I'm talking probably twice as much if not more, by being leaner and in better shape. The higher your bodyfat, the more your body will aromatize and turn test into estrogen instead if building muscle with it. What this does is just bloat you, get you even fatter, give you much less muscle, and increases your chances of gyno big time. I want you to realize just how important getting into shape is before cycling.

Thanks man, let me just say I am appreciating the feedback. Putting aside the age problem for now, I am curious what you would consider the correct weight and fat% to be before starting a cycle?

Hey bro... welcome to adrenaline rush and its great to have you here... So let's jump in...

You are very young to be using steroids... I generally never recommend them to anyone your age... watch my video on this.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Cs8geL4zU

I would not advise any sort of use based on age and just general physical condition... even if you were 25, i would not advise it due to your current condition... it is not the right condition for steroid use... steroids are used by people in good condition attempting to surpass plateaus reached... you cannot reach a plateau at 21 years old of growth... you MAY reach a plateau of your growth DUE to your training and eating but your body is just starting to mature and grow naturally... your fucking it up right now in a very bad way by inhibiting the natural process... its a very poor decision and something you may think your okay with now but i assure you that you will regret down the road...

as far as sarms go, i assure you that you are far more than wrong on what your saying about them... i won't even say anything, read all the logs everywhere and you can decipher what i mean... i haven't spent the last 5 years of my life putting so much time and effort into them because they suck bro... thats up to you but sarms and peptides are far more optimal for you... ONE, you can get into the proper condition without putting your body through all the undo strain and TWO you can see mega results as well... that's your call and if your intent on running steroids, i will help you but i just want you to understand how poor of a choice it is first...

 

[TheRev404]

Hey bro... welcome to adrenaline rush and its great to have you here... So let's jump in...

You are very young to be using steroids... I generally never recommend them to anyone your age... watch my video on this.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Cs8geL4zU

I would not advise any sort of use based on age and just general physical condition... even if you were 25, i would not advise it due to your current condition... it is not the right condition for steroid use... steroids are used by people in good condition attempting to surpass plateaus reached... you cannot reach a plateau at 21 years old of growth... you MAY reach a plateau of your growth DUE to your training and eating but your body is just starting to mature and grow naturally... your fucking it up right now in a very bad way by inhibiting the natural process... its a very poor decision and something you may think your okay with now but i assure you that you will regret down the road...

as far as sarms go, i assure you that you are far more than wrong on what your saying about them... i won't even say anything, read all the logs everywhere and you can decipher what i mean... i haven't spent the last 5 years of my life putting so much time and effort into them because they suck bro... thats up to you but sarms and peptides are far more optimal for you... ONE, you can get into the proper condition without putting your body through all the undo strain and TWO you can see mega results as well... that's your call and if your intent on running steroids, i will help you but i just want you to understand how poor of a choice it is first...

Hey man, thanks for having me great to be here. Thanks for the response on the thread. Thanks for the video just gave it a watch.

Quickly on the topic of sarms, look I respect your guys opinion on them and understand that you trust them to deliver. Personally I just don't feel that I want to take the risk, but that's just for myself, I am by no means going to go around telling people not to use them or what ever, I will just not use them myself.

As for the rest, well I am going to share my opinion which I am sure will be unpopular around here but I will share it none the less. Personally I feel that the notion that performance enhancers, specifically AAS should only be used when breaking a plateau is silly. A person wants to get their body from point A to point B, whether they are on a plateau or not. Now sure that person most likely if not hitting their limit can get from point A to point B naturally, with less risk and more effort over a longer period of time or they can choose to use something to help them to get from point A to point B faster, all be it with increased health risk. Is that lazy or impatient? Probably, but some people just don't have the time, money or energy to do it naturally over the longer period of time, and personally I don't see that as being in anyway worse a reason then wanting to break a plateau. Bear in mind I am not factoring the age factor into this at all.

As for my age, you might be right and I will put more consideration into it before making my mind up. However for me personally the way I see it is the fact that I took roids back when I was 15 and again more recently will more than likely mean my growth plates are screwed already. Sure repeated use could have long term effects on my natural hormone production, but this is the case at any age, all be it somewhat decreased when you're older than me.

Thanks again for the feedback, I will continue to think about everything you guys have to say. I hope you don't take my sharing my opinions as me disregarding yours, I just like to share my mind at let you know where I am coming from when approaching something like this.

 

[DylanGemelli]

Hey bro... welcome to adrenaline rush and its great to have you here... So let's jump in...

You are very young to be using steroids... I generally never recommend them to anyone your age... watch my video on this.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Cs8geL4zU

I would not advise any sort of use based on age and just general physical condition... even if you were 25, i would not advise it due to your current condition... it is not the right condition for steroid use... steroids are used by people in good condition attempting to surpass plateaus reached... you cannot reach a plateau at 21 years old of growth... you MAY reach a plateau of your growth DUE to your training and eating but your body is just starting to mature and grow naturally... your fucking it up right now in a very bad way by inhibiting the natural process... its a very poor decision and something you may think your okay with now but i assure you that you will regret down the road...

as far as sarms go, i assure you that you are far more than wrong on what your saying about them... i won't even say anything, read all the logs everywhere and you can decipher what i mean... i haven't spent the last 5 years of my life putting so much time and effort into them because they suck bro... thats up to you but sarms and peptides are far more optimal for you... ONE, you can get into the proper condition without putting your body through all the undo strain and TWO you can see mega results as well... that's your call and if your intent on running steroids, i will help you but i just want you to understand how poor of a choice it is first...

Hey man, thanks for having me great to be here. Thanks for the response on the thread. Thanks for the video just gave it a watch.

Quickly on the topic of sarms, look I respect your guys opinion on them and understand that you trust them to deliver. Personally I just don't feel that I want to take the risk, but that's just for myself, I am by no means going to go around telling people not to use them or what ever, I will just not use them myself.

As for the rest, well I am going to share my opinion which I am sure will be unpopular around here but I will share it none the less. Personally I feel that the notion that performance enhancers, specifically AAS should only be used when breaking a plateau is silly. A person wants to get their body from point A to point B, whether they are on a plateau or not. Now sure that person most likely if not hitting their limit can get from point A to point B naturally, with less risk and more effort over a longer period of time or they can choose to use something to help them to get from point A to point B faster, all be it with increased health risk. Is that lazy or impatient? Probably, but some people just don't have the time, money or energy to do it naturally over the longer period of time, and personally I don't see that as being in anyway worse a reason then wanting to break a plateau. Bear in mind I am not factoring the age factor into this at all.

As for my age, you might be right and I will put more consideration into it before making my mind up. However for me personally the way I see it is the fact that I took roids back when I was 15 and again more recently will more than likely mean my growth plates are screwed already. Sure repeated use could have long term effects on my natural hormone production, but this is the case at any age, all be it somewhat decreased when you're older than me.

Thanks again for the feedback, I will continue to think about everything you guys have to say. I hope you don't take my sharing my opinions as me disregarding yours, I just like to share my mind at let you know where I am coming from when approaching something like this.

bro the forum is all about opinions... everyone is entitled to that and should have the ability to voice it...

no need to explain on sarms bro as things are not for everyone and noone is trying to push anything on you... that's all up to you... just basically providing info for you and alternatives...

as far as using after you have plateaued, your failing to understand that if you don't allow your body to reach its highest levels naturally, you are cheating it, which surpasses a natural occurring process and that hinders everything in the future... that's why its not safe.. you are throwing things completely out of whack and your hindering future gains... you can do whatever you like and if you feel that's the best way, by all means go for it... i am just trying to help you to get the most out of everything, have a healthier and longer life etc... if you feel the need to hurry things or rush things then you are always welcome to do so... my job is to prevent any sort of issues that could arise and im trying to keep you not only the healthiest possible but also trying to ensure that you are able to get the most out of everything you do in the future... like i said, i'll help you but i've been doing this for over a decade, i have seen this over and over and over yet over again and i know how it goes but like i said, if your intent then i will help you set this up so your doing it right and effective but just understand, once again, while i respect you have an opinion, its not right and you will just have to learn the hard way on it... ive done my part explaining and i just want to help, so if your intent, let me know and i'll help