Low dose test E (70-125 mg) + deca (200 mg)

[curiousguy]

Hi Dylan, I'm wondering what you think of someone using such low doses of exogenous test for the sole purpose of your body having some testosterone (i.e. within natty levels, possibly even on the lower average spectrum of 400 ng/dl or so) while using using 200 mg of deca.

Before you ask "why?", it's to keep the androgenic side effects of testosterone minimized, especially hair loss for those with MPB, while gaining muscle. Deca is not very androgenic (androgenic:anabolic ratio is 37 vs 125), and having (probably) less testosterone in my body with 70-125 mg per week than my natural levels (700 ng/dl) likely won't speed up hair loss either - right?

I am considering running test E and deca for 12 weeks together with cabergoline and hCG, and a 4 week PCT with Nolva, ZMA and DAA. Due to lower doses of test, I probably won't need Aromasin/Arimidex during the cycle either.

As a bonus, I might throw in t-bol for 6 weeks (which supposedly doesn't have any androgenic effects at all) for some extra muscle gains.

So, would you say this is a bad idea - to have a minimal effect on the hairline to those predisposed with MPB while making a lot of gains with deca - and if so, why? Because I don't think I need 1,200+ ng/dl of test in my body (and thus speed up hair loss) to make good gains (but it sure helps, yea...). But I've never done a cycle before, so I'm willing to learn.

Thanks

 

[RickRock]

You should never run your testosterone lower than Deca. That's where you run into the Deca dick issues and libido issues you always hear about. Test should be equal to or great than Deca....always

 

[marcusdavis23]

You should never run your testosterone lower than Deca. That's where you run into the Deca dick issues and libido issues you always hear about. Test should be equal to or great than Deca....always

RickRock is right also since this is your first cycle run Test only.


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[curiousguy]

You should never run your testosterone lower than Deca. That's where you run into the Deca dick issues and libido issues you always hear about. Test should be equal to or great than Deca....always

But deca dick is due to prolactin levels increasing (actually that's a myth, it's due to progesterone/estrogen imbalance, you can get deca dick without elevated prolactin levels, but lowering the prolactin will lower the progesterone and thus the side effects), hence the need for cabergoline on tren/deca cycles, increasing testosterone won't help with that at all, in fact it might even worsen it because more testosterone aromatises into more estrogen. Not to mention I'm not exactly "abusing" deca by using too much, in fact, people would say the 200 mg I plan on using is not enough.

3:40 into video, Dylan prefers more deca than test:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC9Bim__aAE

RickRock is right also since this is your first cycle run Test only.

If I ran a test-only cycle, I'd have to use more than on a test + deca cycle, thus increasing the androgenic side effects of testosterone which I'm actively trying to avoid, hair loss in particular, so a test-only cycle is out of the question. No, shaving my head is not an option.

This is exactly why I'm interested in a low test dose which would keep me at around my natural levels (or even below), just so I am not completely devoid of testosterone in my body, with deca (and possibly t-bol) helping me get some decent gains at the same time, with minimal androgenic side effects.

Makes sense?

 

[bodean30]

I'm an advocate of keeping the test/nandrolone ratio equal or a little higher.

What it really comes down to is your own body. Everyone is different and this might just work for you. The only way to find out is to experiment. It's not like you're proposing something dangerous, but just keep in mind the possible side effects. In my opinion as long as you are running a replacement dose of testosterone and keep deca on the lower end you should be fine. Though I do think your test dose is still a bit low. 150/200 sounds like a better starting point.

Try it out and keep us updated.

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[cbbram00]

I've ran Test/Deca 150/300 with no problems but when I neared week 16 my libido was lower than normal. This is a very debatable topic and you're going to get different replies.

 

[buen]

Your plan is flawed in so many ways
You have no way of knowing how you will respond to test
70-125mg per week can easily give you blood serum levels of 700-1250ng/dL

You want to gain muscle...but not risk hair loss ....the steroids don't give you muscle ...they aid in nutrient transport while training hard....for the amount of AAS you propose...the amount of "aid" is so small...there is no reason you can't gain the same mass naturally ....you have no need of steroids for these modest goals
Hell...just going thru PCT and trying to jump start your natural test production...may put you behind where you start from... negative gain
The risk to reward ratio is totally wrong

Post your complete stats
Age height weight BF training expirience macros

 

[buen]

while making a lot of gains with deca -

Mmmmm....where did you read that you would make "a lot of gains" using 200mg per week of deca....in 12 weeks to boot

 

[DTA707]

But deca dick is due to prolactin levels increasing (actually that's a myth, it's due to progesterone/estrogen imbalance, you can get deca dick without elevated prolactin levels, but lowering the prolactin will lower the progesterone and thus the side effects), hence the need for cabergoline on tren/deca cycles, increasing testosterone won't help with that at all, in fact it might even worsen it because more testosterone aromatises into more estrogen. Not to mention I'm not exactly "abusing" deca by using too much, in fact, people would say the 200 mg I plan on using is not enough.

3:40 into video, Dylan prefers more deca than test:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC9Bim__aAE


If I ran a test-only cycle, I'd have to use more than on a test + deca cycle, thus increasing the androgenic side effects of testosterone which I'm actively trying to avoid, hair loss in particular, so a test-only cycle is out of the question. No, shaving my head is not an option.

This is exactly why I'm interested in a low test dose which would keep me at around my natural levels (or even below), just so I am not completely devoid of testosterone in my body, with deca (and possibly t-bol) helping me get some decent gains at the same time, with minimal androgenic side effects.

Makes sense?

Since you're such an expert inquiring minds want to know, why even ask the question?

Like everyone else said, you will have deca dick running it your way and won't get much out of the cycle

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[bodean30]

But deca dick is due to prolactin levels increasing (actually that's a myth, it's due to progesterone/estrogen imbalance, you can get deca dick without elevated prolactin levels, but lowering the prolactin will lower the progesterone and thus the side effects), hence the need for cabergoline on tren/deca cycles, increasing testosterone won't help with that at all, in fact it might even worsen it because more testosterone aromatises into more estrogen. Not to mention I'm not exactly "abusing" deca by using too much, in fact, people would say the 200 mg I plan on using is not enough.

3:40 into video, Dylan prefers more deca than test:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC9Bim__aAE


If I ran a test-only cycle, I'd have to use more than on a test + deca cycle, thus increasing the androgenic side effects of testosterone which I'm actively trying to avoid, hair loss in particular, so a test-only cycle is out of the question. No, shaving my head is not an option.

This is exactly why I'm interested in a low test dose which would keep me at around my natural levels (or even below), just so I am not completely devoid of testosterone in my body, with deca (and possibly t-bol) helping me get some decent gains at the same time, with minimal androgenic side effects.

Makes sense?

You are quoting one of Dylan's old videos. I'm sure at the time he may have believed that to be the best way to run your ratios, but things change and new information comes to light.
Check out his most up to date video regarding this...
https://youtu.be/ZwygdmEd628

As usual, Buen is spot on. Listen to his words of wisdom.

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[curiousguy]

there is no reason you can't gain the same mass naturally ....you have no need of steroids for these modest goals

Train 5+ years naturally to get the same gains I would with one or two cycles in a single year. Have you forgotten how hard it is to gain muscle naturally once your "newbie gains" are over?

Hell...just going thru PCT and trying to jump start your natural test production...may put you behind where you start from... negative gain

I doubt it with proper PCT, diet and hCG usage during a cycle.

Post your complete stats
Age height weight BF training expirience macros

28, 5.10, 170 lbs, 9-10%, 2.5 years, ~3000 kCal

Mmmmm....where did you read that you would make "a lot of gains" using 200mg per week of deca....in 12 weeks to boot

I'd be making a lot more gains than I would naturally, that's a fact. The gains might not be "massive" but still would come about faster and bigger than naturally possible.

 

[RickRock]

But deca dick is due to prolactin levels increasing (actually that's a myth, it's due to progesterone/estrogen imbalance, you can get deca dick without elevated prolactin levels, but lowering the prolactin will lower the progesterone and thus the side effects), hence the need for cabergoline on tren/deca cycles, increasing testosterone won't help with that at all, in fact it might even worsen it because more testosterone aromatises into more estrogen. Not to mention I'm not exactly "abusing" deca by using too much, in fact, people would say the 200 mg I plan on using is not enough.

3:40 into video, Dylan prefers more deca than test:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC9Bim__aAE


If I ran a test-only cycle, I'd have to use more than on a test + deca cycle, thus increasing the androgenic side effects of testosterone which I'm actively trying to avoid, hair loss in particular, so a test-only cycle is out of the question. No, shaving my head is not an option.

This is exactly why I'm interested in a low test dose which would keep me at around my natural levels (or even below), just so I am not completely devoid of testosterone in my body, with deca (and possibly t-bol) helping me get some decent gains at the same time, with minimal androgenic side effects.

Makes sense?

For somebody that hasn't ran shit, you sure think you know everything and have it all figured out bud. I can tell you from my real world experience that is never run test lower than deca...ever. As a matter of fact, I prefer test to deca at a 2:1 ratio and that's what works best for me. I'm not saying that's for everyone either but you at least want them even.

Regardless if this is your first cycle you can throw deca out the window. It needs to be test only

 

[cbbram00]

You guys can go back and forth with this but generally 200mg of Deca won't cause significant prolactin issues.

 

[Mychdz]

I personally like the 2/1 ratio of test / Deca myself.

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[DTA707]

This guy is gonna do WTF he wants to do. There's no point in arguing with the guy. He clearly knows more than any of you [emoji6]

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[curiousguy]

Since you're such an expert inquiring minds want to know, why even ask the question?

Like everyone else said, you will have deca dick running it your way and won't get much out of the cycle

I like to do my research thoroughly in order to understand the substances involved, the mechanics involved, side effects and the like. Is that a bad thing now? I understand it's not recommended and is even counter-productive to run deca/tren at doses >400 mg or more than the test base, HOWEVER, this is in regard to cycles with bigger test and deca dosages than I'm proposing. The facts being that deca is progestagenic, more of it will produce more of the side effects (deca dick, lactation, gyno), hence it's discouraged to go insane with deca doses and use 400 mg max. The other fact is that testosterone aromatises into estrogen and more of it obviously means more estrogen. Upping the testosterone will have zero effect on preventing "deca dick," it might even worsen the situation if you don't use an AI since now you have more estrogen AND progesterone. That's the science.

Now... In regards to my inquiry, I plan on using a small dose of test and keep my testosterone and estrogen levels "normal" and use the minimum amount of deca for bulking purposes. Just by using a much smaller amount of deca, the possible side effects such as deca dick are lessened, and in any case using more test would not help the situation if it arises or prevent it from happening in the first place, there's cabergoline for that.

If I'm wrong on this, then please correct me and explain why and how. Hope Dylan chimes in too.

 

[curiousguy]

Regardless if this is your first cycle you can throw deca out the window. It needs to be test only

Why, just to see how my body reacts to the test itself? As I said previously, a test-only cycle is not an option due to the androgenicity and potential hair loss.

 

[jp1957]

Here's the thing. Its great you have researched, etc etc I applaud the work you've put int. Most people dont.

But your research is flawed, especially when presented by decades of actual usage experience.

So when someone with no experience, tries to argue with someone that has many years, if not decades of experience, your arguments are just annoying.

 

[SdBronco]

Why, just to see how my body reacts to the test itself? As I said previously, a test-only cycle is not an option due to the androgenicity and potential hair loss.

So you think by somehow adding MORE AAS like Tbol and deca you will avoid hariloss and not accelerate it? God bless your soul. If you are worried about hairloss with test only you shouldn't be cycling at all.

But who even cares about that...your logic and reasoning is heavily flawed, you may not be as smart as you think and here is why.

Here is the scenario, you are dead set on AAS use. You are prone to MPB so your hair will fall out no matter what you do steriods or no steroids. Its just a matter of time. You fear this side effect and its NOT and option for you as you describe, but it does not matter your hair is going to fall out anyways. And yes deca will increase that hairloss ALL steroids have the ability to increase MPB. The more steriods you use at once the higher chances of MPB.

If yoi believe some phony bro science about how deca lowers DHT and this is helps save your hairline then you can throw that information out the window as hairloss can be accelerated by other factors its not strictly DHT related as you may think. Steriods work in many ways that science simply doesnt fully understand and probably never will.

You really that scared of baldness then dont use Steriods. Here is a good question, are you even prone to MPB?

 

[curiousguy]

So you think by somehow adding MORE AAS like Tbol and deca you will avoid hariloss and not accelerate it? God bless your soul. If you are worried about hairloss with test only you shouldn't be cycling at all.

Well, there are steroids that are more androgenic and more likely to cause androgenic side effects and steroids which are less androgenic and not as likely to cause androgenic side effects. Deca and turinabol are not very androgenic and you are in fact more likely to get androgenic side effects from a bigger test-only cycle than from the low-dose test cycle I'm proposing. This is not bro science, this is actual science.

Here is the scenario, you are dead set on AAS use. You are prone to MPB so your hair will fall out no matter what you do steriods or no steroids. Its just a matter of time.

The difference being that if I can keep my hair till 35, I'll choose that instead of going on a huge cycle with test and tren to speed that process and lose much of my hair in a year or two.

Here is a good question, are you even prone to MPB?

Yes. It's not as bad as for some and not really that noticeable (yet), but I can tell how my hairline has receded over the years.