Hey all, sorry I haven't been posting recently, been a busy boy 
This piece was inspired by a new research published just this past month, that reminded me of a discussion Dylan and I had. In similar fashion to most of my articles here, it is written with the advanced athlete/bodybuilder in mind. The basis for the article is academic AND experience based. As always, references follow at the bottom of the page.
Disclaimer: I recognize as well as yield to the great authority that stems from the cumulative years of experience this forum members posses. This article humbly suggests to reveal an additional dimension to hormonally governed energy balance principles, and not to disrespect anyone's experience or personal inference as it pertains to the topic at hand. As an academic I firmly believe that no amount of academic information could substitute experience.
This article serves to debunk the following statements:
- A ketogenic diet will demonstrate a marked benefit as it relates to fat loss, over a carb containing diet of similar calorie load.
- Ketogenesis and a state of ketosis is ideal for fat loss over a non keto controlled diet of comparable calorie load.
- High insulin is needed to build muscle, low insulin is needed to burn bodyfat.
Since I've often seen individuals in forums attacking with stupendous zealous questions, we'll stage such a discussion between myself and an all knowing gym rat
Keto diets WORK, for many things, of course. They work for fat loss and are quite effective as well, but the core reason they do isn't the ketotic state that they promote, but the fact that (1) they are classically considerably either more fat or protein dense, the latter being the strongest promoter of satiety gram for gram (no, not fat, as most would think) (2) Once the body is adapt to ketosis even though hunger may persist, cravings actually go down (no, hunger and craving are not synonymous) (3) resulting in an overall lower calorie intake.
If both dieters consume the same amount of protein, and their overall calorie intake is identical, there will be no significant difference in bodyfat loss (Check out the research cited below). Both would also experience comparable extent of diet induced thermogenesis (thermic effect of food) due to similar protein intake.
*Keto diets have other significant benefits that are independent of fat loss, those are not discussed here.
Insulin definitely plays a role, the issue is most lay people neglect to consider that insulin works in parallel with many other hormones, and insulin high or low on its own right means nothing, in a healthy individual.
Don't believe me? Need proof? No problem.
Consider this: a few hundred years ago, whole populations that were living in the northern hemisphere (Scandinavians, North American and Siberian inuits (eskimos), etc) were subjected to conditions in which there is no source of carbs for months and months. NONE. Nothing grows in the winter. All the available calories were fat and protein, through most of the year.
Now think of the vikings, Norwegians, icelanders, Scandinavians, eskimos, even animals that live in these cold climates. Are they small and skinny? No. They are massive and have significant bodyfat. In effect the more north you go, the BIGGER animals get, humans, too. All of these populations are generally huge in frame.
No carbs. Low insulin. BUT a lot of muscle mass and also a lot of bodyfat. Oops.
Fact: You can build mass with low insulin if your overall energy state is superfluous AND muscle stimulation takes place. You can burn fat on a higher insulin state if your overall energy state is deficient. Our survival as a species depends on these abilities.
No. It definitely does, what I'm saying is that you do not need high insulin to get big at all. This whole concept, mind you, started when insulin was first introduced to the bodybuilding community, when people started to get monstrously big by injecting it in supra-physiological doses. Looking at it from the sideline it would seem that high insulin equals mass gain, but that doesn't mean that mass gain requires it.
Ketosis works, but it is not a superlative compared to non ketotic fat loss mechanisms providing protein and total calories are equated. People think ketosis is this magical state were fat just melts. Ketosis is one of many the mechanisms the body uses to produce energy, not lose fat. Ketones are very energy efficient, as is your body. Very minimal energy is lost when we switch to using ketone bodies.
(!) Fat loss is often incorrectly viewed as energy loss. What the body actually does to lose fat is energy MANAGEMENT. The body doesn't waste energy.
Use a keto stick. Go on a keto cutting diet. You'll notice your stick would show positive for ketones after a few days. Now wait a bit, a week is enough. Now test again. If you stayed at a truly low insulin state your stick would show either none, or minimal ketones. Oops. Why? Your body now uses ketones at the same rate it produces them, energy MANAGEMENT, not loss. Do you think your body is stupid enough to just dispose of energy? That doesn't exist in physiology.
No, you don't lose ketones in the urine in any appreciable amounts that would potentiate fat loss.
Shut up about “the best”. That concept doesn't exist in biology. If there would be ONE BEST mechanism, there would be only one type of humans. There are many types, because different genetic makeups react differently to different nutrition. A better question would be “what is better”.
In my own opinion, for fat loss, the better option would always be the option that allows you to chiefly control two lifestyle aspects. Persist consistently with your diet, and proper macro/calorie control. Whatever diet allows you to achieve both goals, may be the better diet FOR YOU.
*This discussion is representative of parameters during states of physiological insulin levels. Higher than normal (i.e. When injected) or lower than normal (i.e. Diabetes type I) nullify some of the principles discussed.
Thank you for reading.
References:
1. A review of the carbohydrate-insulin model of obesity / Hall K.D; Eurpean Journal of Clinical Nutrition, January 2017
2. Medical physiology / Guyton and Hall; Unit XII “Gastrointestinal physiology”, Unit XIII “Metabolism and temperature regulation” Unit XIV “Endocrinology and reproduction”
This piece was inspired by a new research published just this past month, that reminded me of a discussion Dylan and I had. In similar fashion to most of my articles here, it is written with the advanced athlete/bodybuilder in mind. The basis for the article is academic AND experience based. As always, references follow at the bottom of the page.
Disclaimer: I recognize as well as yield to the great authority that stems from the cumulative years of experience this forum members posses. This article humbly suggests to reveal an additional dimension to hormonally governed energy balance principles, and not to disrespect anyone's experience or personal inference as it pertains to the topic at hand. As an academic I firmly believe that no amount of academic information could substitute experience.
This article serves to debunk the following statements:
- A ketogenic diet will demonstrate a marked benefit as it relates to fat loss, over a carb containing diet of similar calorie load.
- Ketogenesis and a state of ketosis is ideal for fat loss over a non keto controlled diet of comparable calorie load.
- High insulin is needed to build muscle, low insulin is needed to burn bodyfat.
Since I've often seen individuals in forums attacking with stupendous zealous questions, we'll stage such a discussion between myself and an all knowing gym rat
Q: If keto diets don't work, how come pros use it and get great results?! Are they idiots while you've got all the answers?
Keto diets WORK, for many things, of course. They work for fat loss and are quite effective as well, but the core reason they do isn't the ketotic state that they promote, but the fact that (1) they are classically considerably either more fat or protein dense, the latter being the strongest promoter of satiety gram for gram (no, not fat, as most would think) (2) Once the body is adapt to ketosis even though hunger may persist, cravings actually go down (no, hunger and craving are not synonymous) (3) resulting in an overall lower calorie intake.
Q. That's bullshit, if you take 2 identical dieters on same calorie load diet and one is on a keto diet, the keto dieter would get more ripped, no?
If both dieters consume the same amount of protein, and their overall calorie intake is identical, there will be no significant difference in bodyfat loss (Check out the research cited below). Both would also experience comparable extent of diet induced thermogenesis (thermic effect of food) due to similar protein intake.
*Keto diets have other significant benefits that are independent of fat loss, those are not discussed here.
Q. Ok, so why the hell are you saying that insulin doesn't play a role when it comes to fat loss?!
Insulin definitely plays a role, the issue is most lay people neglect to consider that insulin works in parallel with many other hormones, and insulin high or low on its own right means nothing, in a healthy individual.
Don't believe me? Need proof? No problem.
Consider this: a few hundred years ago, whole populations that were living in the northern hemisphere (Scandinavians, North American and Siberian inuits (eskimos), etc) were subjected to conditions in which there is no source of carbs for months and months. NONE. Nothing grows in the winter. All the available calories were fat and protein, through most of the year.
Now think of the vikings, Norwegians, icelanders, Scandinavians, eskimos, even animals that live in these cold climates. Are they small and skinny? No. They are massive and have significant bodyfat. In effect the more north you go, the BIGGER animals get, humans, too. All of these populations are generally huge in frame.
No carbs. Low insulin. BUT a lot of muscle mass and also a lot of bodyfat. Oops.
Fact: You can build mass with low insulin if your overall energy state is superfluous AND muscle stimulation takes place. You can burn fat on a higher insulin state if your overall energy state is deficient. Our survival as a species depends on these abilities.
Q: Hold on, are you saying that high insulin doesn't promote mass gain?!
No. It definitely does, what I'm saying is that you do not need high insulin to get big at all. This whole concept, mind you, started when insulin was first introduced to the bodybuilding community, when people started to get monstrously big by injecting it in supra-physiological doses. Looking at it from the sideline it would seem that high insulin equals mass gain, but that doesn't mean that mass gain requires it.
Q: So what you're saying is ketosis doesn't really work and it's all bullshit?
Ketosis works, but it is not a superlative compared to non ketotic fat loss mechanisms providing protein and total calories are equated. People think ketosis is this magical state were fat just melts. Ketosis is one of many the mechanisms the body uses to produce energy, not lose fat. Ketones are very energy efficient, as is your body. Very minimal energy is lost when we switch to using ketone bodies.
(!) Fat loss is often incorrectly viewed as energy loss. What the body actually does to lose fat is energy MANAGEMENT. The body doesn't waste energy.
Q: But unlike carbs ketones float in the blood and you pee them out! Don't you waste/lose energy like that?
Use a keto stick. Go on a keto cutting diet. You'll notice your stick would show positive for ketones after a few days. Now wait a bit, a week is enough. Now test again. If you stayed at a truly low insulin state your stick would show either none, or minimal ketones. Oops. Why? Your body now uses ketones at the same rate it produces them, energy MANAGEMENT, not loss. Do you think your body is stupid enough to just dispose of energy? That doesn't exist in physiology.
No, you don't lose ketones in the urine in any appreciable amounts that would potentiate fat loss.
Q: So what the hell is the best?!
Shut up about “the best”. That concept doesn't exist in biology. If there would be ONE BEST mechanism, there would be only one type of humans. There are many types, because different genetic makeups react differently to different nutrition. A better question would be “what is better”.
Q: Fine, What IS better?
In my own opinion, for fat loss, the better option would always be the option that allows you to chiefly control two lifestyle aspects. Persist consistently with your diet, and proper macro/calorie control. Whatever diet allows you to achieve both goals, may be the better diet FOR YOU.
*This discussion is representative of parameters during states of physiological insulin levels. Higher than normal (i.e. When injected) or lower than normal (i.e. Diabetes type I) nullify some of the principles discussed.
Thank you for reading.
References:
1. A review of the carbohydrate-insulin model of obesity / Hall K.D; Eurpean Journal of Clinical Nutrition, January 2017
2. Medical physiology / Guyton and Hall; Unit XII “Gastrointestinal physiology”, Unit XIII “Metabolism and temperature regulation” Unit XIV “Endocrinology and reproduction”
Last edited:
![[9oNe6]BillyD@kid](/forums/data/avatars/m/2/2076.jpg?1477587594){kind=avatar}
